Curse

draxynnic · Aug 02, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Strength ^

It helps a LOT. Plus you can spec 15 into swordsmanship for a more kickass Dragon Slash.

I'm not sure I'd agree that it helps a lot, although it certainly helps a little... but more importantly, it doesn't specifically help in using Warrior weapons. It helps in using ANY melee weapon.

Which is possibly the actual point - Warriors and Assassins both have primaries that help in smashing face, while the Dervish's primary attribute, well, isn't oriented to weapon use. Personally, though, I don't really see this as a problem: I've always thought of the Dervish as being intended to be a hybrid - a kind of dedicated PBAOE specialist spellcaster who uses a melee weapon because it makes more sense than a staff if you're going to be mixing it up anyway.

With this in mind, I would contend that it's not actually a problem that Warriors and Assassins can wield a scythe better than a Dervish. Scythe-wielding isn't really the Dervish's forte. The real problem is that what is supposed to be the Dervish's forte is currently seriously underpar, forcing it to fight as an almost pure physical alongside the Warrior and Assassin - a position in which it is at a serious disadvantage.

That Warriors and Assassins can use AoHM just adds insult to injury. Personally, I think PvE skills should never have been tied to titles but wholly to attributes just like regular skills, but that's another discussion. It does mean that I certainly wouldn't be adverse to applying a Mysticism dependance to AoHM, though.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 02, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

So basically what I have here is such

-bringing back enchantment juggling through buff of pious Assault and other enchantment skills used with it. (PvE only probably)

-buff mysticism (both pvp and pve)

- link AOHM to myticism (pve obviously)

-Buff mysticism elites (both, possibly)

- make avatars maintainable without Eternal Aura. Rework Avatar of Balthazar. (PvE)

Am I missing anything?

Tenebrae · Aug 02, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

The real problem is that what is supposed to be the Dervish's forte is currently seriously underpar, forcing it to fight as an almost pure physical alongside the Warrior and Assassin - a position in which it is at a serious disadvantage.

Bingo, main att synch is bad since the beggining. A get Crit strikes and W get Str , pretty normal for a melee but then the other melee , D gets .... Mysticism ? erm .....w000t ?. It has nothing to do with its main function , it should work to give bonus for damage depending on enchants and rank att .
A- get energy on crits and rise crit chance
W- get % of AP in every attack skill
D- get +bonus damage on regular hits under ench effect ? or somethin but not what it does now

draxynnic · Aug 03, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27

The important part of the sentence is the first part, not the second. Dervishes aren't weak because they can't outdamge W/Ds or A/Ds with a scythe - they're weak because, with the role they were designed for not being viable, they have no choice but to try.

Perfected Shadow · Aug 03, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Well linking AoHM to mysticism after it's been around for so long would piss off scythe wielding warriors/sins (including me ^^). Imo it's better to come up with buffs to mysticism and it's skills.

reaper with no name · Aug 04, 2009, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Oh, come on. You knew you were exploiting the system when you made those characters. By all rights, you deserve a nerf and you know it. What's more important; making sure that your game-breaking build (that should never have existed in the first place) still works, or making sure that all the honest people who made dervishes expecting them to be good at something were able to do so?

MithranArkanere · Aug 05, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Hammers work best with Strength.
Bows work best with Expertise.
One of the best spear attacks is in Leadership.
Daggers are undoubtedly better with critical strikes...
And scythes are better with... anything but Mysticism.

That's something to think about...

Reverend Dr · Aug 05, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

The old Irresistible Blow worked a lot better with expertise.

Perfected Shadow · Aug 06, 2009, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

What's more important; making sure that your game-breaking build (that should never have existed in the first place) still works, or making sure that all the honest people who made dervishes expecting them to be good at something were able to do so?

a) they're not game breaking
b) my suggestion to improve mysticism and it's skills solves both of your concerns

Reverend Dr · Aug 06, 2009, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Oh, come on. You knew you were exploiting the system when you made those characters. By all rights, you deserve a nerf and you know it. What's more important; making sure that your game-breaking build (that should never have existed in the first place) still works, or making sure that all the honest people who made dervishes expecting them to be good at something were able to do so?

Blatant hostility, over exaggeration, obvious agenda.

You are not here to discuss any type of 'balance.' You are here strictly such that you can get your way. You haven't cared about any of the current proposals, nor have you really paid any attention to the issues that have created our current situation and the effects of changing those issues. You are not here to discuss, you are here to inflame and have people tell you that you are right.

It is bad enough when people complain about PvP balance, where overpowered builds directly ruin the fun of others. However your PvE complaint that you can still do the same things just a bit less effective comes off incredibly childish and selfish, which goes nicely with your bratty attitude.

Araotan · Aug 13, 2009, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Lookie here, the new Derv updates:

* Armor of Sanctity: functionality changed to: "All adjacent foes suffer from Weakness for 5..15 seconds. For 10 seconds, you take 5..20 less damage from foes suffering from a condition."
* Aura Slicer: functionality changed to: "If this attack hits, you deal +10..25 damage. If you are enchanted or this attack hits an enchanted foe, that foe begins Bleeding for 5..15 seconds."
* Dwayna's Touch: increased recharge to 5 seconds.
* Meditation: increased recharge to 12 seconds. Functionality changed to: "You gain 20..125 Health. If you are not enchanted, you also gain 3..8 Energy."
* Natural Healing: functionality changed to: "You are healed for 40..100 Health and an additional 40..80 Health if you are not enchanted."
* Pious Restoration: increased recharge to 8 seconds; increased casting time to 1 second. Functionality changed to: "You gain 80..150 Health and lose 1 enchantment. If an enchantment was removed in this way, you also lose 1..3 hexes."
* Sand Shards: functionality changed to: "For 30 seconds, Sand Shards ends early if you use an attack skill. When Sand Shards ends, it creates a sand storm at your location that deals 10..20 damage each second for 10 seconds to nearby foes."
* Vow of Piety: increased Energy cost to 15; reduced casting time to 0; increased recharge to 45 seconds. Functionality changed to: "Stance. For 20 seconds, you have +24 armor and +1..4 Health regeneration. Vow of Piety renews whenever an enchantment on you ends."
* Winds of Disenchantment: moved to the Wind Prayers attribute. Functionality changed to: "Lose 1 enchantment. If an enchantment was removed in this way, all nearby foes lose 1 enchantment and take 20..80 cold damage."
*Conviction: functionality changed to: "For 10..35 seconds, you have +24 armor. If you are enchanted, you also have a 50% chance to block."

HAPPY Now?

Cuilan · Aug 13, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

In before someone states: The people in this thread know of the updates already and they don't fix the dervish damage compared to sin and warrior scythe damage.

Nobody complained when assassins were best at barrage than rangers?

IronSheik · Aug 13, 2009, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Araotan

Lookie here
HAPPY Now?

You do know that the only scythe attack touched is still useless...it applies bleeding every 10 seconds with a clause.

Pretty nice attack now amirite?

Every other skill is used on everything BUT the dervish.

Do you see a decent derv with natural healing? Or Sanctity? Is there a good derv build using Piety? No, these are used on warriors monks and sins as supports.

I mean look at sand shards...what's it used most on? Warriors..

And to quote the above post of barrage, it's because rangers still have another batch of elites to fall back on, dervs only have 1-2 that aren't avatars.

Reverend Dr · Aug 14, 2009, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Araotan

HAPPY Now?

Well it has given me a reason to take a dervish secondary.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 14, 2009, 08:56 AM // 08:56

/facepalm

It is a fact that dervishes are already very good in PvE.

That a different class uses their weapon better, does not change this. It just means a different class uses their weapon better. The dervish is still very good in PvE.

draxynnic · Aug 14, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Araotan

Lookie here, the new Derv updates:

* Armor of Sanctity: functionality changed to: "All adjacent foes suffer from Weakness for 5..15 seconds. For 10 seconds, you take 5..20 less damage from foes suffering from a condition."
* Aura Slicer: functionality changed to: "If this attack hits, you deal +10..25 damage. If you are enchanted or this attack hits an enchanted foe, that foe begins Bleeding for 5..15 seconds."
* Dwayna's Touch: increased recharge to 5 seconds.
* Meditation: increased recharge to 12 seconds. Functionality changed to: "You gain 20..125 Health. If you are not enchanted, you also gain 3..8 Energy."
* Natural Healing: functionality changed to: "You are healed for 40..100 Health and an additional 40..80 Health if you are not enchanted."
* Pious Restoration: increased recharge to 8 seconds; increased casting time to 1 second. Functionality changed to: "You gain 80..150 Health and lose 1 enchantment. If an enchantment was removed in this way, you also lose 1..3 hexes."
* Sand Shards: functionality changed to: "For 30 seconds, Sand Shards ends early if you use an attack skill. When Sand Shards ends, it creates a sand storm at your location that deals 10..20 damage each second for 10 seconds to nearby foes."
* Vow of Piety: increased Energy cost to 15; reduced casting time to 0; increased recharge to 45 seconds. Functionality changed to: "Stance. For 20 seconds, you have +24 armor and +1..4 Health regeneration. Vow of Piety renews whenever an enchantment on you ends."
* Winds of Disenchantment: moved to the Wind Prayers attribute. Functionality changed to: "Lose 1 enchantment. If an enchantment was removed in this way, all nearby foes lose 1 enchantment and take 20..80 cold damage."
*Conviction: functionality changed to: "For 10..35 seconds, you have +24 armor. If you are enchanted, you also have a 50% chance to block."

HAPPY Now?

Does almost nothing about the problem. As Reverend Dr implied, there's nothing there that can't be used by the W/Ds and A/Ds that are being complained about except Mysticism, and that... it really isn't that good. In fact, those changes actually may have stripped away more than they gave.

EinherjarMx · Aug 14, 2009, 03:05 PM // 15:05

isn't it about how the class was meant to be? (neverminding the fact that it's a team play)

I mean, AFAIK, warrs are supposed to be in the middle of the action absorbing some damage and dealing even more, hence the 100 AL?

Assassins, are meant to do some big spike damage at the expense of having almost a caster armor.

Dervs, (IMO) are supposed to be a mix between warriors and casters, with enchantments that help with condition spreading, damage reduction, regen, etc. AND when finished, doing some extra damage.

The error here is that important skills are not bound to their primary attribute, so yes you could always lose to A/D's and W/D's outputting raw damage but that should be compensated by the effects of other skills.

Can't do 100 dmg with a scythe skill? how about doing only 80dmg plus 40+ dmg through other means such as enchantment stripping or applying conditions while fighting?

And about energy management, all said enchantments shoud be expensive, but you should reap the benefits at the time you apply them not when they finish, so you should enchant your ass before you fight and enter immediately into battle full energy or at least 75% ready to do some serious aoe damage + condition spreading. Burning, weakness, blind, etc, can be very useful sometimes.

A derv should be: "every time you strip an enchantment, god kills a kitten and deals 30-50 dmg to all the adjacent/neaby enemies"

HawkofStorms · Aug 14, 2009, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Well it has given me a reason to take a dervish secondary.

True that. Armor of Sanctity monks are getting annoying.

Catchphrase · Aug 15, 2009, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Araotan

HAPPY Now?

Nope. Not on my dervish, especially these 2 skills.

Sand Shards' self removal upon usage of attack skills blows the point of having enchantment self-removal skills at all. They should just omit that removal clause in exchange for reducing the recharge in order for dervish to be able to get the most out of it.
AoS is ridiculous on /D casters yet mediocre on D/. Reduce the weakness duration to 0..2..5. Personally I think it is a good pair up with Pious Renewal but there are just no viable self rend attack skills to mix it up with the pair.

I propose the following changes in order to encourage some healthy experimentation of the 'enchantment juggling' play style of dervish without depriving the current 'stacking' play style at the same time.

Arcane Zeal: For 2..6..10s, your enchantments are cast and recharge 33% faster.
Pious Assault: Lose 1 enchantment, you deal +5...17 damage. If an enchantment is lost, target foe suffers deep wound for 5...17 seconds and Pious Assault recharge 33% faster.
Pious Fury: Lose 1 enchantment, you attack 33% faster for 2..8s. If an enchantment is lost, you also have +24 armor.
Vow of Strength (change to skill type): Lose all enchantments. Your next 3 attacks deal 5..25% more damage against unenchanted foes. 50% chance of failure with Mysticism 4 or less.